The planet defenses.

[JetJaguar2000]

I assume this means that "combat" is not modeled as an explicit event between two players, but rather there is some thread monitoring everyone's assets asking "is this thing being attacked? If so, attack back!" and that is where first strike derives from?

The combat tutorial claims that combat damage is resolved simultaneously to both sides. Does first strike imply that this is not that case and they alternate attacking, or is first strike just the trigger that starts them shooting at each other on the same schedule?

[Tsagoth]

No combat is not a single event, like rolling dice and saying x wins. Say Player A and B are at peace, and A flys ships to B's planet. B's possessions do nothing as A is not a known enemy. A says attack B. A combat AI is launched for A. AI(A) then finds all of A's ships that can be used for the attack. It then locates all the targets that B owns. It then attaches individual combat AI to each attacking ship. Then it runs through all of the attackers and assigns them their targets, using as many ships on each target as it deems is necessary to kill the target outright. Finally it gives the signal to each ship to start shooting. After that AI(A) goes to sleep. When an attacker destroys its target, it notifies AI(A) that it needs a new target, at which point AI(A) will run through target selection again for that ship. If an attacker is destroyed, AI(A) removes the ship from the attacker list and makes its target available for other ships to attack. During all of this each of player A's ships are shooting on their own schedule as dictated by their indvidual AI routines. The process is essentially the same for player B. When one of ships take damage, it launches a combat AI for player B and it also alerts all of player B's other assets, so that even if it is destroyed by the first strike, whatever remains of B will continue to attack. The shooting of the missiles/energy beams by the attacker is separate from the application of the damage to the target. The defender can't know what the attacker has done until the damage begins to appear, and this is always going to be the case. Sorry for the long paragraph, but the stupid editor is borked and I can't put in blank lines.

[JetJaguar2000]

No combat is not a single event, like rolling dice and saying x wins. Say Player A and B are at peace, and A flys ships to B's planet. B's possessions do nothing as A is not a known enemy. A says attack B. A combat AI is launched for A. AI(A) then finds all of A's ships that can be used for the attack. It then locates all the targets that B owns. It then attaches individual combat AI to each attacking ship. Then it runs through all of the attackers and assigns them their targets, using as many ships on each target as it deems is necessary to kill the target outright. Finally it gives the signal to each ship to start shooting. After that AI(A) goes to sleep. When an attacker destroys its target, it notifies AI(A) that it needs a new target, at which point AI(A) will run through target selection again for that ship. If an attacker is destroyed, AI(A) removes the ship from the attacker list and makes its target available for other ships to attack. During all of this each of player A's ships are shooting on their own schedule as dictated by their indvidual AI routines. The process is essentially the same for player B. When one of ships take damage, it launches a combat AI for player B and it also alerts all of player B's other assets, so that even if it is destroyed by the first strike, whatever remains of B will continue to attack. The shooting of the missiles/energy beams by the attacker is separate from the application of the damage to the target. The defender can't know what the attacker has done until the damage begins to appear, and this is always going to be the case. Sorry for the long paragraph, but the stupid editor is borked and I can't put in blank lines.

That sounds incredibly convoluted. It's strange to me that you are modeling combat as if it were a simulation when it is (or should be) an entirely deterministic event based on simple input (the ships present at the site of the event), especially given that combat itself is non-interactive.

In any case, this is very different than what the combat tutorial describes. Having one side fire first completely changes the dynamic of the battle. Couldn't you just have the first shots fired after an attack order be "dummy rounds" that do zero, or some fractional damage? Enough to trigger a response but not enough to give an advantage.

[Supamand]

Hmm so a person with a huge force could just 1 shot things without taking casualties?

What happens if player B is at war with player A? Do ships then attack simultaneously?

[Royce]

What happens if player B is at war with player A? Do ships then attack simultaneously?

You mean this?

If you are at war with someone then you should get the first strike as soon as they appear at your planet. Your defences should fire as soon as the enemy has reached orbit.

Looks like first strike goes to the defender if at war, attacker if not.

[catswift]

First strike needs to go. I captured my entire galactic sector on day 3 of a server start (not colonies, just outposts), all without losing a ship.

Diplomatic status having an effect on first strike just contributes horribly to this mechanic. Set my diplomatic status with everyone to war, please. The cost otherwise is simply not worth it.

[JetJaguar2000]

First strike needs to go. I captured my entire galactic sector on day 3 of a server start (not colonies, just outposts), all without losing a ship.

Diplomatic status having an effect on first strike just contributes horribly to this mechanic. Set my diplomatic status with everyone to war, please. The cost otherwise is simply not worth it.

Yeah, the balance of this game is all messed up. I'm not even sure anymore what factors are contributing to it, which of them are bugs, and what can be done about it. I still think colony defense is too high, but outposts are too easy to take. Taking an undefended outpost should be easy, but with first strike it's nearly impossible to deploy sufficient defenses at an outpost. Once an attack by 20+ cruisers is common (which doesn't take long), first strike means you need 5 or more orbital laser arrays to fend that off. Is that really what the designers intended?

What we need is a bunch of fixes and then a fresh game to see how they play out. The dynamics are all out of whack in the early games because of the lack of ship count early on, artificially inflated empires, etc. (that said, I've already given up on the latest server, since my home world spawned in the absolute corner of the universe, with nothing within 10 sectors, and the closest stuff already claimed by others... And I'm not a trader).

As much as I love the idea of this game, I'm starting to think it's really just not ready for prime time. It needs 6 more months of design and development. The fact that fundamental balance changes are patched in willy-nilly is not encouraging. For a game of this complexity, you really need to think through the impact of every tweak.

[Tsagoth]

First strike needs to go. I captured my entire galactic sector on day 3 of a server start (not colonies, just outposts), all without losing a ship.

Diplomatic status having an effect on first strike just contributes horribly to this mechanic. Set my diplomatic status with everyone to war, please. The cost otherwise is simply not worth it.

Well we're definitely discussing things internally, but I'll say one thing here: If somebody shows up with 40 cruisers and you only have 20, why shouldn't the attacker be able to one-shot the defender ? How is it fair that we say to the attacker, sorry, although you had double or triple the ATK to destroy the defenders, you have to lose 1/3 of your ships anyway.

Dummy rounds might be a possible solution. I'm also looking into some kind of early warning system that would alert the defenders when the attacker initially gives the order to fire.

[VanderLegion]

I would say that if you're at war, both sides should attack at the same time, since they both know it's coming. If you aren't set to war with each other, whoever chooses to attack should get the first shot, since the other side wouldn't be expecting it.

[catswift]

Well we're definitely discussing things internally, but I'll say one thing here: If somebody shows up with 40 cruisers and you only have 20, why shouldn't the attacker be able to one-shot the defender ? How is it fair that we say to the attacker, sorry, although you had double or triple the ATK to destroy the defenders, you have to lose 1/3 of your ships anyway.

If I build a defense system, whose sole purpose in life is to kill anything hostile to my interests, and it is always prepared to do so, why would it suddenly not decide to fire?

That's like saying the U.S. missile defense system won't shoot down a nuke sent from Russia because the President hasn't had the chance to say "we're at war" yet.

But, hey, if y'all are cool with me taking over an entire galactic sector in less than 56 hours from game start who am I to dissuade you.